Malas vs rajin: mitos kerja lintas negara, bareng Vanessa Tan

Transkrip otomatis dari audio asli (Bahasa Indonesia) — belum disunting.

Intro & Welcoming Vanessa Tan! [Music] Welcome to another episode of Proxmics, uh, where we talk communication, public relations, marketing, and everything in between. And every now and then we got some pretty cool dope people uh who stop by our studio. And today is no different. Uh it's actually even crazier.

Now we have kind of the first guest, international guest I would say, right? International guest. So uh she's a very uh good friend of ours. Uh we've known our guest for a long long time. Uh we go way back.

Uh she's definitely one of the kindest people in the industry, right? Which we need more in this world, right? Yes. And it's even crazier considering that she's coming from uh the tech industry, right? Uh that is heavily dominated by male.

Uh so maybe we can talk about that a little bit later. Anyway, please welcome to the show Vanessa. Yay. Thank you. Thank you guys.

Happy to be here. Hey, Vanessa. Yeah, we've been we've been trying to get you to come for for a while now, huh? I think it's been probably about what three months, right? But the time was never work.

Yeah. Right. Because usually you you come over around the weekend, right? And there was this always scheduling issues. So, true, true, true.

Finally, finally in his new studio. In the new studio. Very honored. Yes. Yeah.

In the in the new studio. So, welcome. Thank you. Very happy to be here. It's a very nice setup.

Very beautiful. Oh, thank you. All of us are on theme as well. Anyway, we we got a lot of questions for you. Uh we're going to uh talk your experiences, right?

Uh your background. So, so let's let's take it back to Xiaomi maybe. Right. That's the common thread here. Common threat.

No, the three common thread. You also common thread. Yeah. Like we used to work uh to serve Nostalgia: The Early Days of Xiaomi in Indonesia Vanessa as a client and then you joined the dark side obviously then I was serving you too and then now uh you know yeah Steph I think we met in 2017 right that was the first time or was it 2016 I think 2017 I met yeah yeah yeah I think maybe 16 or even 15 17 I remember that we did the I move already to the India trip. So maybe 16 or 15.

I can't remember. I joined Xiaomi in 2016. So maybe the end of 2016 I think. So I think I remember Vanessa when we had that event in XX1. Was he there?

Remember the Plaza Sayan? No, I think that Hugo Hugo was still there, right? Oh, wait. Hugo was still there. Hugo was still there, but she wasn't around.

I think whatever. But it's some somewhere that we know 2016 2017. Yeah, somewhere there. I remember because we were trying to get um we were trying to pull our rate seven launch. Oh, sorry.

Sorry. Remem now they're already at Redmi 15. So, can you imagine how long was that? I 8 years ago. I remember the first time we met was in San City.

He were making the PPT for their launch. Yes. But city because we have the event in plus across the street maybe. I think like the theater the movie theater. No.

What was your first show? No, there's two different there's like two different thing. Uh I think the f the theater one you you were ref referring to Redmi something Redmi Note or something that was in um Sina was not 5 I think Redmi Note 5 was that's definitely the one that I remember. So we had JKD48 over there is that right was it? No no way before that.

Okay there's a lot of confusion. Yeah. So maybe maybe uh let's just put a window of 2015 to 2016. Yeah. And a funny story about me and Vanessa and I was even though we met that moment, but I remember that the the first interaction that maybe like the foundations of our eventually friendship was that when I first moved to the dark side, John was like, had I has I moved to the when he specifically want me to come to your room and be acquainted four other meetings.

Do you remember that? John wanted you to meet her first before. Yes. Yes. I don't remember.

Was that a Okay. Was I still with the agency or moved to this the other side? I don't remember. But I remember that specific interaction that John was like, "You have to meet her first before." Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That one. Did John ever explain why? I No, it makes sense. But I'm just wondering, did he ever explain?

I think he was just trying to, you know, watch my back and take care of Mila as part of his team. I think maybe it's the the kind person situation, right? Hey, you should get to know Vanessa. I could be. Could be.

But that's for sure. But the other thing I think John is one of the nicest person I've ever met also apart from Vanessa. I think that's one of one of his way to watch my back life. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. He's like the father figure in in the whole company back in Xiaomi. So he tends to take care of everyone tends to take care of everyone just trying to make sure that all of them are accounted for. So I guess at a point of time I think it was because you joined you were about to join us. So something like that.

Yeah. So we wanted we wanted you to know what the team was like and what to expect you know because it's is it's a big it's a it's a very different it's very different right. So maybe so I don't quit in the I don't quit in the first week. Maybe that's maybe why. Okay.

Yeah. And I remember that probably that first month, you know, I had to go to India to cover her staff because, you know, she's not here anymore. She wasn't here. So, I had to go. Was that was that the air purifier launch?

Was it a Hugo launch? No, no longer Hugo. No longer Hugo. Oh, okay. Okay.

You live in two different Okay. Right. Yeah. So I have to go to China and he has to go to Beijing cuz he has to go to Delhi because I cannot go to Delhi obviously. So first time he travel internationally for a client in 10 years maybe because of Steph.

Oops. But she's back with you now. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. That's uh pretty good. Anyway, working at Xiaomi, you know, uh uh I've heard uh very tough, right? uh very challenging um very busy a lot of things that you guys have to handle especially regionally you know and then even dealing with market as big as Indonesia for example right which is not the easiest what was your most important lessons right things that you take from that experience and then you know bring it to work every day now for example I think the first thing is You you have to thrive on speed and being scrappy you Key Lessons from a Fast-Paced Work Culture know. So the thing is a lot of times we are expected to make magic with very little resources that we have you know so you learn to be very creative very quick very resourceful and I think that shapes how I think about certain things today.

So to a certain extent you know sometimes when you're given a certain budget it doesn't necessarily mean that you know there's always something that you can do around this particular amount of resources that you have be it people be it time be it money so I think that really shapes the way I think and approach things even till today. So that experience in Xiaomi was very um very um was was how I think basically shaped how I actually approach a lot of problems these days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's pretty uh crazy. And obviously you know surviving it you know you did it give you guys for for step two did it give you guys superpowers right? Did you what else is there? You know that you can only get from that experience and from nowhere else? I mean to me right I didn't know that I'm able to do that until I push myself to do that because I I wouldn't think it's possible to handle let's say six market because before moving to the client side people always say that um client side is easier easier than agencies corporate is easier than agencies it's a lot chiller a lot um predictable whatever because that's was that was the prejudice at the time when I moved M wa that's completely different.

Yeah, I think the challenges are very different, you know. Wow. Yeah. Like Yeah, it was completely different. Different.

So, having that prejudice mindset coming in expecting things to be slower, but it's faster. So, I think I didn't know that I was able to go through that until I actually go through that. You know what I mean? Yep. But at the same time, I think it's also because of the company that you joined as well.

You know tech technology in China moves so fast. you know what is what is what is uh you know what works today might be obsolete the next day you know so the thing is we had to make a lot of fast decisions and you know inaction is worse than not making a decision right and all these actually actually to a certain extent I think I think it's no different would you would you say that you know the the life that you had in back pre Xiaomi and after and during Xiaomi days and you know it's is it's about the same yeah I feel like I made decision without knowing what are the results because I have to make a decision otherwise things will not move you know so I think those are the things that really shaped me I guess in terms of a a person in my personal life and my professional life is not don't don't be afraid to make decision yep I think that's one key thing that I learned like yeah and apart from that I think the other experience is you know you're working you know in an agency you work with mostly Indonesians Right. So back in when you move to move to Xiaomi there's a lot of cross-cultural cross borders cross collaboration. So you tend to develop a lot more empathy towards other cultures you know then you know there are certain times where you don't understand why certain people work in certain manner you know look at her face because I remember that at the time it was a lot of things to learn not just the culture not just the habit it's also the language and then the cultural nuance to it. It was a lot to absorb but yeah I mean and at the same time under very very tremendous pressure because you know on average every every year you remember how many launches do we have 15 minimally 15 phones when it comes to high-end mid-range and low low end but and you remember how how much work you have to put in one launch.

Yes. before you finish with one and then you already start planning for the second and you know so on and so on. It's like you were like in a hamster moving around the wheel and you know what it's crazy but I mean it was fun. That's why I feel like we joined Xiaomi in the right time because at that age when we were younger it was fun. Still young.

Still young. I'm still young. I'm always forever 17. So you know 17 is too young. I I would prefer to be like 28 21 22 but the energy that you have to The Importance of Cognitive Diversity in a Team put their mindset everything it's just that's I think I understand why the company hire a lot younger generation nowadays not just Xiaomi in general but all Chinese companies they tend to h to hire uh younger generation like you know fresh grads new hired is because I think they need that kind of energy energy Yeah.

Otherwise, it's tough. It really you need to inject the new blood into into things, you know, because a lot of times, you know, now I I don't know about you, but I always feel like I'm I'm a fresh graduate. Do you feel not really I mean, I didn't know what I mean graduating from college, I feel like, wow, I didn't know what to do with my life. Yeah, it was it was Maybe you're again, maybe you're more put together even when you're just graduated college. For me, I don't think I knew what I was doing.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, I at the time when I just start when I finish college, I'm like, man. I don't know what to do with my life.

So, maybe slightly different, but I I I I do agree that I can understand why now companies hiring more uh younger and younger is because of that reason. Probably you have to deal with that um and new energy, new blood, whatever. But at the same time what's lacking is the experience, the wisdom. You know, you can be young, you can be fresh, you can be full of new ideas. But in leadership, I think when it's lacking of wisdom, when it's lacking of experience, it does affect the decisions being made.

I think that's one thing that maybe companies out there need to, you know, take into consideration when you're building a team. M yeah I think a good mix is actually important because it contributes to the cognitive diversity you see because when it when you know the younger folks I was just telling some of my interns lately and I said you know every single day I learn from you guys the whole reason why I say that I always think that you know I okay so it's is a very funny funny experience so there was once I was going back to Singapore and I I graduated from National University of Singapore so I was walking alongside with my intern and she was saying, "Hey, that was my hustle." And I said, "Oh, yeah. It feels like I just graduated." So, so the thing is, why do I say that is because don't you think that when it comes to PR, when it comes to marketing, right? And in in essence, everything is changing every day. You know, how we consume uh how we consume information is very different from when we were schooling versus now.

You know, now I can generate, you know, answers, you know, uh answers to um the questions that I'm being posed via chat GBT. And then I actually you know and I make edits to it you know based on my experience based on what I think is right for me. So I think the way we so to me every single day I have to learn you know is is always a very dynamic kind of approach in in in in consuming and uh and learning. So that's why I feel like every single day is a fresh start. You know there's something new to learn every day.

So that's why I do think that you know I I consistently need to upgrade myself. So that is why I feel like oh right I I still feel like The AI Debate: Helpful Tool vs. Brain Shrinker? I'm I'm a fresh grad. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's a very good mindset right like I think it's also the thing that we always discuss whenever we hired or whenever we retain uh talent. I think it's important to take into consideration the growth mindset. Correct. Yep.

I think that is very important when it comes to um you know assessing whether assessing candidates as well. you know, a fixed mindset is somebody, oh, uh, this is done, you know, I'm not going to grow and I don't want to grow. Yeah, that's tough. Yeah. Yeah.

But I totally agree. I mean, from that perspective, learning something new every day, it's, you know, it's not that like, yeah, you kind of need it for work, but it's also for yourself. You know, after a while, you cannot be doing the same thing every day. Yep. You know, it gets boring, you know.

you know uh so like learning something new using the tools that they use you know with you know the kids today like you know that's always very exciting and how we can improve our just work overall right make it faster and everything and especially with with the AI AI is getting crazy man you know I just I just watched the interview of um the CEO of open AI I just shared it to you about the the story behind and why he launched the judge 5. I think it's it's scary. I mean, it's easier for for human to function in general, right? Because you can just ask whatever questions and AI will answer it for you. It's scary at the same time like how would the world be in five years if things in AI move this fast?

Yeah. like think about how would AI affect our life not just in our job but in like in life in general I'm like after that after that interview I'm like oh my head hurt actually it's a very interesting question as well because you know there was once I was I was also talking to my intern and she's graduating next year so she asked me you know how would um you know right now with with AI you know being so being so widely used what is my age when I when when I graduate, you know, they are actually getting worried, you know, but at the same time, I was just telling her that, you know, AI should actually help you to get the basics done so that you are able to build on it and pro and be able to provide a different perspective that most AI that AI cannot give. Yeah. Correct. So, so I think a lot of times we see AI as a threat, but the thing is I think we should see as a tool for you to up your game.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I don't want to discredit the younger generations, but obviously that's easier.

You know, it's like, you know, we always use this analogy. 30 years ago, Windows 95, right? Like it's the first time you have a start menu on your computer, right? And there's this fan. Exactly.

Without actually putting the discat, right? And then prompting, hey, do this or do that, you know, you know. And uh of course back then some people or majority of people they don't use computers right PCs but they were okay but obviously the people who does who who did use PCs they you know they're ahead of the game right they can do all this different uh stuff and then the internet right uh also some people you know they they weren't using internet as much as the others and the others got the advantage and now I guess The 95-Year-Old Grandma Story & Keeping Your Brain Sharp AI is kind of the same right to you just need to you make your peace right uh make it work for you know don't don't see it as a threat you know yeah I think not not so much as a threat but how to make you better I think it's because it's it's fairly new to everyone right it's just the unknown part of it that makes it scary right you don't know what you don't like it's not about we are threatened by the uh discovery of AI it's more like it's still new. It's very um unpredictable. So we don't know what happened like I don't know how this thing will you know will will will change our life in general.

So I think that part is scary the unknown part. I mean I enjoy chibi nowadays of course my copywriting is so good dude it take me it used to take me like what two hours to edit a release. Yeah. But now when I once I know the flow that I want took me like what half an hour talks you know make a change like they give you a draft and you're like no change again submit again come back that's it great. Yeah that's amazing but then it shows and and you can see how much better it you know like today's version compared to like a year ago.

Yeah it is. It's crazy man. Crazy it is I think like a week ago. Oh, I forgot to create this presentation. I did it in like half an hour, man.

With with with AI, right? Yeah. You know, you need to ask the, you know, put the right prompt and stuff, of course. And then you learn after a while, but put this into the table, sort it based on SEO, do this, do that. Like, oh my god, it took me, it used to take me like, you know, three, four days.

How how at least half a week to do that. Exactly. Yeah. Oh yeah. I have to sort all these things, get this information, subscribe to whatever else.

Yes. Yeah. In the past, we used to get interns to help us do certain things as well, right? So now these days, I don't even rely on Sorry. I know.

I know. I know. That's what I was saying. Like doing a it it used to take me maybe I spend a solid half day just to edit a release or, you know, edit a plan or etc. But now with GPT, dude.

Yes. like AI tools in general, it helps you become more efficient. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, correct. That's undeniable.

It's just the thing that we've seen the thing that we can um make make the use of it, right? But the other things that I I mentioned earlier is like the unknown part of it, right? Because again I'm going to quote that research that I read from I think from Yale or from Harvard I forgot how they they've done a research to a number of people that using JBD consist not JGB sorry AI tools AI in general consistently their brain shrinks bro like how can I read I I think I read before but is it that fast I don't know but I I I didn't see the I I haven't got into the detail of it but at least the headline and the the summary of that re uh of that study shows if you're consistently using some AI tools, it's just affect how your brain works. You know, actually I have a I have a good uh example of this. You know, I always quote my it might it might sound unrelated for now, but I always quote my 95 year old grandmother.

Okay? So, you know, you know, I try to make it a point to go out with her after work. So, I'll bring her to the supermarket. So there was one night supermarket on the run. Yeah.

Sorry. So you know we we w we walked down this aisle and she she saw a packet of um of six lemon Bali. Okay. So So she said, "Oh, six packets of lemon Bali, $2.70. This is in SGD.

One packet almost immediately. One packet is 45." I was just like, "Dude, did she just calculate on the fly?" Mind you, she's 95. She's 95. And you know, I can never owe her money or I can never owe her money. She'll be like, "Vanessa, you owe me $50.

Vanessa, I owe you $30." And and you know, another incident was um I will I will pay for her first. And sometimes I I would just be like, you know, she's my grandmother, so I'll just pay it for her. And she will h me down every other day and say, you know, Vanessa, it's time to actually do the accounts. Um how much do I owe you? I think I owe you $30.

I said, how would you know you owe me $30? And she said, okay, you go and count. So I actually went to count it was $30.25. So she remembers every single item that she bought and the price of it. So relating to this whatever that you said right I I believe that when it comes to when it comes to um you know learning or be it you know training your brain is an is like a muscle you know you you know bodybuilders they they train every other day right so likewise if your brain if you if you leave it to if you leave it to AI all these well it's definitely going to shrink.

If I if I if I if I were to if I were to draw parallels between these right these two it's the same. So if every single time we we keep using AI yes we would we we wouldn't we would just be very lazy when it comes to thinking. So I do while I do think that you know AI can actually help us to become you know more efficient. It provides perfect knowledge for us but at the same time we should not we should not totally rely on it. Yeah.

So, so that makes sense, you know, to a certain extent that, you know, if you don't train your brain, it's going to shrink. So, I and and honestly, every single day, right, you know, I I do feel bad that my grandma cooks for me now still, even though she's 95, but I leave it to her to decide what do I eat at the end of the day because it trains her to think about, okay, I need to cook this for Vanessa and I need to buy the I need to buy all these ingredients and that that gives her a motivation to one, you know, look forward to eating with me after work. Secondly, think about you know the physical exercise the muscle memory right helps your brain to continue at least retain its size line instead of shrink. So okay don't use as much no but I I I still I still think we can use it when it comes to very basic stuff you know like when it comes to for for instance you know in the past I think Stephanie will know you know we'll have a comparison table when it comes to like the different phones you know in the past. The Future of Marketing: From Sensory to Neuro-marketing Exactly.

Yeah. So all these actually require a lot of time to plow through the entire internet to get it right you know to make sure it's accurate you know it take you know you can ask three people to do it hey make sure this is good you know yes so it really increases efficiency but not to be overly reliant on it yeah I guess that's kind of true and there's still a lot of I think there's still a lot of inaccuracy to it so that's why the thing that I think um all of these younger generation or even our generation will realize that AI one is to help make our job easier uh faster I think efficient but at the same time it needs to be double triple check because I've experienced it myself that I've seen a lot of errors small small errors but matters so it means our role as a human is still needed yeah it's not totally obsolete yes correct like they can get it wrong for things that is super mundane like 1st of September is a Monday and I'm like, "No, it's not. It's a Monday." Really? Yeah. Yeah.

Sometimes I never double check those stuff, man. So, it's been wrong for a lot of time, maybe. No. Exactly. So, those other small small things, you expect them to be right because it's on the calendar, right?

But apparently they get it wrong. I see. Yeah. Interesting. But yeah, I guess uh I just remember uh when I was in the US, right?

Uh back then there was this uh website Map Quest, right? Hey, I'm trying to get to somewhere in LA for example from San Diego. Oh, you need to print, you know, you need to open the website, print it out, and then you kind of look around, you know, for the And now with Google Map, it it it definitely makes me dumber in terms of streets of Jakarta. I don't remember where places are, you know, anymore. Like usually you just go you know you know where to go.

Now wait a minute how do I get there? Then you have to rely on Google map like Google map for everything and then you know for sure for example hey four o'clock in the afternoon you don't want to go over there right you know that you used to know that you know that's just common sense but then you rely on Google you know the it tells you hey go this way and you just follow of course you know it's uh traffic crazy I think it's a give and take you know yeah I guess yeah it I think it's a give and take yeah so so like for instance right now it everything everything that we experience in this world becomes more efficient right but at the same time it's it's us as humans rising above it to see you know what are the value addedness that we can bring to the table you know yeah correct I think I think to a certain extent that is to me that is like a you know getting directions here and there is like a is a very manual thing right but at the same time it's don't really know how to how how I should be phrasing this but in general I I do think that all these tools will help us to be become more efficient of course there will be you know um um you you just have to give and take yeah you know it's like fire or knife you know you can do good things with it but sometimes you don't get hurt you know sometimes not so much yeah that's that's Uh pretty interesting you know it got me to think about what can't be replaced you know and I I was thinking for a minute there uh like sensory branding the smell you know the experience at least not now you know I don't think AI can you know experience what we experience like how it smells you know what kind of a senses that will trigger it when you know those type of marketing That would be crazy. I think some people is I think uh oh yeah on an unrelated things we're sending somebody to South by Southwest in Sydney from the office and one of them is like neuro marketing or whatever like crazy stuff. Jay actually the one who brought that up. Yeah Jay presented about that uh session.

Yeah. Are we heading to that direction? You know, maybe because AI because it's a very scattered world out there, right? And everybody is just very it's like our brain is congested with a lot of information and at the same time we have to deal with other other things in our life. Uh so you have to juggle everything.

I think marketer need to find a smarter way to like directly hit your neuron. Yeah. Directly hit your emotion or your brain or whatever. How you do that? probably through those neuro marketing I think.

Unique Marketing Case Studies in Japan (KFC & Nestle) Dude, that's sounds crazy. It's like a next level kind of marketing, right? Yeah. So, it goes beyond just, you know, the price, what you see and what you feel, but something that is directly related to how your brain works. Cuz now it's very hard to do marketing.

I think marketing, PR, everything is now it's harder because people are number one, people is are smarter. Now you have every tools to search about their products. It's it's tougher to do marketing today than I don't know 20 years ago. I think it is. So I think this neuro marketing is important.

Um I think for the for the next level of marketing to ensure that marketer are able to connect with human dude it's like we're in a weird episode of black mirror or something you know like for the marketing people you know like there should be an episode about that probably It's hard like now everything everything is competing for your attention because everything to a certain extent we are the in the attention age right where you know where we are overwhelmed with a lot of visuals you know you know there is Tik Tok there is Instagram there's reals you know all these are actually consuming you know just to add on what Stephanie said you know they they are consuming your visual your your your visual right so like it's time to look beyond just visuals you know what are the other avenues of actually tapping into the emotions of people. It's just like you know how you would how will you how you you would feel when you when you smell a certain kind of scent and how does that what kind of emotions does that evoke in you? Does that in invoke for instance if you f if you smell fried chicken you'll be like oh my goodness I just want to eat that now are you hungry now? Yeah yeah yeah yeah and and the thing is like will it evoke you to immediately want to okay I want to go and get KFC now. Yeah.

You know you know that kind of thing. Yeah. So to a certain extent right now everybody is just thinking about you know um the visual part of it you know moving moving forward. Hey what are the other what are the other ways to innately motivate somebody and play around with their psychology to actually purchase your product. Yeah I think that's the next level of marketing right cuz you cannot compete with whatever that we are doing right now.

Yeah, I think I as a marketer and as a communication uh person, I'm looking forward to brand who are able to connect to that next level. Everything is so congested. I'm it's like it's very loud. My phone very loud cuz whenever I open my Instagram, whatever I open whatever it's a lot of different, you know, at least Yeah. Yeah.

At least uh Instagram you can personalize whatever whoever you want to follow. But now you're explore. You cannot, you know, it's just they push you a very random content. Yeah. Uh did you guys hear about this?

Uh I don't know if it's real or not, but you know, it's circulating in the internet. So basically, they're trying to sell coffee in Japan. Did you hear about this? You know, like, you know, like uh 10, 20 years or 30 years ago, they're trying to sell coffee, but it's not a coffee culture, you know. very uh tea right nobody drinks coffee I think this is about Nestle if I'm not mistaken I could be wrong but long story short you know what you can't do that says the marker you need to you know uh build this this you need to introduce first right no better way to introduce since you're younger so at first they're selling this you know different like candies or whatever that has coffee flavor Copico.

Like Copico, right? And then look at where Japan is now. Crazy coffee culture. Like who thought of that? That's like psycho stuff, man.

And I remember talking about KFC also, right? Also Japan. I put two and two together. There is this story also. I don't know whether it's also uh the right history or not, but KFC, they only eat KFC on like special occasion.

You mean Japan Christmas? Yes. Because they market it like that like American like you know it's a it's a celebration whatever. So whenever so they make this and they market it in such a way that in special occasion you have to get KFC. So every special occasion apparently KFC has a lot of people a lot of long lines to get their bucket of chicken.

I'm like what? Yeah. Yeah. So they've been marketing in a way that you associate, you know, KFC meals as a form of celebratory kind of Dissecting Perceptions & Stereotypes of the Indonesian Market American. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I think they cracked that. Um yeah like the code kind of right.

Yeah. Yeah. It's also quoting Japan as a market. It's very interesting how that geographically is very close between Japan, China, Korea and even Southeast Asia but how the market are very different. It is right.

So it leads me to my next questions about the role. So you're now doing the regional role. You have been doing regional role um during your days here and before like how do you see each of these market um different how Indonesian are you know are perceived out there and not the same between that reality and um expectation at the time. Oh wow. Um, so I'll just speak for Indonesia because I I I spent a good I wouldn't say good amount of time.

Um, I would say a good amount of time here, you know, and I have a lot of Indonesian friends. She studied Bahasa Indonesia for the record. Wow. But I'm not good at it. Um, yeah.

So I think I think most importantly I I love my time here, you know, that's why I keep coming back. I think first and foremost is is the warmth here. you know, businesses over here are very relationship driven and uh once you earn the trust, they income they become incredibly loyal, you know, and um it's really a human connection that really sets it apart for for uh for Indonesia, for me at least. Like even even, you know, well, I mean, this is this is another topic that we probably would touch on later on, you know, um even when we were doing u ministry of gowns, right? There was once, you know, we we were at we both of us were at a shop.

So there's this dun who came by and she was like, "Oh, you know," she was just trying different dresses and she was asking me, "Oh, do I look pretty?" And and I told her very honestly, you know, I don't think you look good in this one. Why not try this? But eventually because of that warmth and trust, she eventually said told her daughter, "Hey, go and get go and get one more dress." And I got another deal in, you know. So So it's it's really the warmth that you that you that is very different for me at least that I see that really sets it apart. But of course, you know, um is over here in Indonesia is very communitydriven.

You know, I think I was cited as I will boil it down to how people um you know, even when I was young, all my Indonesian friends, they would always post large um family photos. You know, that's very that's not commonly seen in Singapore. Also because also because you know, Singaporeans, we we tend to only have one one child or two child due to our policies back then. and and it became it started to become a trend but over in Indonesia it's always like large families and I was I was always very envious about it you know okay and and that and how how everybody would support each other you know even during times of even during difficult times you know back then I remember you know we had Xiaomi Indonesia we had a fan Xiaomi fans community right it was a 2.2 million I I don't know the figures today but back then when we were still in Xiaomi right it was a 2.2 two million big uh um uh uh fan base, right? So I remember there was this lady or this girl who who who who who fell sick and everybody just pulled together whatever that they have to actually help this girl you know this community kind of it's very is it's not commonly seen in other countries if you if you really ask me and that and apart from that you know the word of mouth influence it's that's why influencers are so popular in Indonesia right and you know talking from the micro to the macro you know and yeah so so basically that is very different and of course you know when it comes to the practical side of things it's still a very offline driven market when you know when it comes to businesses yeah but overall I think when it comes to Indonesia it's it's the people that really matters as with every single other country that you know I've I've lived in it's always the people that makes a difference in my life like you guys oh thank you okay No, but do do you think there's still a lot of misperception, misunderstanding about Indonesia as a market?

You think uh for you know foreigners? You dealt with you know foreigners, Singaporean, the Chinese, you know. Yeah. Uh any specific that you think hey that's definitely something that is very inaccurate. Yeah.

based on your experience, you know, that there was once I was in this meeting, you know, and somebody asked um you know, I this was the question that that was posed to me and they said, uh, Indonesians are very lazy, you know, and and I was just a little bit like, hey, who are you to actually have this stereotype, you know, and I think the first things first, a lot of people think that Indonesians are lazy, right? Okay, that's the first thing. And I think the second thing is a lot of people are interested in Indonesia market and they just think that Indonesia is one big market on its own. Of course, you know the whole population is about 278 million, right? And the GDP is about 1.5 which is 1.5 trillion.

This is one oneird of what of of Southeast Asia already. So um I think I'll address the first thing is you know when when when that question came up I was actually offended you know I was just because it it was a Chinese who posed me this question and I said um it in in my heart I was just a little bit like h it's just that you don't know how to motivate this person properly you know because to me when it comes to when it comes to working with people as with everybody else okay we have to admit every single one of us will have that streak of laziness in Of course. Yes. But the thing is it's about finding the right innate motivation that will make them you know or rather make your teammates um you know go the extra mile with and for you. You know you know I was site some of our teammates or you know in the past when we working with our our Xiaomi teammates right you know they will work on Saturday and Sundays and both of us will be like dude you know Saturday and Sunday you need you need to rest to go the longer distance.

Common Misconception: "Are Indonesians Lazy?" But the thing is they were just very motivated in a way that you know they want to make sure that they deliver you know and they are willing to put in extra hours to actually make sure that that happens and apart from that of course you know they will come together as one whole team and and they will want to do this together like so it brings back to my previous point about you know having that community having that support network and plus their innate motivation that you identify to make uh to to actually motivate them to want to go the longer distance and with with and for you. So, so to me I think a lot of times um you know we come very hard on um certain uh some of our teammates but the thing is do we actually really know what is their innate motivation? So I think I mean Stephanie and I we we we both pride on a lot of oneon ones you know and we actually try to find out okay what is your inate motivation so how can we match that innate motivation alongside with the company's motivation as well as our team's motivation or team goals motivation because 1 plus 1 plus 1 technically it should be three but the thing is if you identify it correctly it should be 1 plus 1 plus 1 is greater than three kind of effect. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. So I think to a certain extent that is really understanding what your teammates are and their their attitude and I'm sorry their aptitude and knowing how to motivate them and bring out their attitude so that they they are willing to you know be be able to go the go the extra mile. Yeah. Of course, like we are not safe drivers, right? It's not we wouldn't want that.

And and honestly, I I do know that a lot of times they will say that, oh, you know, we want work life balance, but I I don't believe in everyday work life balance. There will be times where you put in extra hours at work. There'll be times where, you know, you have to get off work earlier to, you know, do do your family stuff. So, I think we are flexible in that manner back then when we were dealing with Xiaomi. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think um quoting back to the questions, right? I heard a lot about this also. Yeah.

that Indonesian are lazy. Indonesian are um what's the word? Uh pushover. Okay. I mean I think it's overgeneralizations.

I'm working across market. I mean I think every country that I work at has those tools quality. Like I wouldn't say Indonesian are lazy. Vietnamese is also lazy. I mean, I work with them and I'm like, "Oh, dude." I mean, some Vietnamese, not as a country.

So, I mean, going back to that, right, I feel like that overgeneralization sometimes is really baseless because you work with you've had experience working with maybe five Indonesian and then all of them are equally lazy. Now, this is very interesting. We we talked about this because we went to Vietnam for our outing, right? Company outing, right? Why me?

For me, my perception of the Vietnamese people, they're hardworking. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, no, no, no, no. It's not.

It's not. But why why is it the other way around for Indonesians? No, no, no. For me, because I work with them on a period of time and it's not generalization. Everyone in Vietnam are lazy.

But it's interesting, right? Of course, you're right with some of the people, right? But why internationally I have, oh, Vietnamese crazy hard workers probably, you know, you know, in the back of my mind. I've never been there. That's why you guys laugh at me like, yeah, man, that's not true.

Okay, but they're doing so good, you know, like economically they're growing and everything. Why do we have this perception at least me that oh even now we talk about of course we're going to lose out to Vietnam man you know they're harder you know hardworking we we throw those words if you see comments in the social media they they throw that out like it's the truth but why is it the other way around for Indonesia you know out there I don't know maybe again it's probably because of whoever made that comment maybe work with yeah very a very unfortunate incident work with only a group of people and then they make conclusion that's why I I I I don't respect that kind of overgeneralization unless you have a proof point like let's say I don't know I'll take an example of Indonesian are very family centric the thing that you mentioned it has data yes and we are known as the what's the word of that um the the collective collective individual versus the individual and we are on the collective side of things and you are uh extended family versus uh something I forget I learned that at school but that it has it has a data right so you can make an argument and you can make an argument you can make a point if you have that that data okay so the conclusion we need to do some pring probably abroad I think that goes back to the point maybe um this is going to be a bit controversial but I like Indonesian government has not been doing a good PR for the country, right? Yeah, probably. I mean, I still want to visit uh Indonesia, so I'll just keep my comments to myself for now. But that's that's what I was saying like your your prime minister, Lawrence, Mr.

Lawrence, Comparing National Culture & PR: Indonesia vs. Singapore he was very articulate. He knows the thing that he said. He has data. He knows the problems.

I know a lot of people will complain about this and say Singapore is very small. Indonesia is very big. You can compare apple. Yes, that that part I agree but at the same time your prime minister are able to do PR for your country properly. So people was like wow Singaporean this PM is very smart.

He knows what happens in the country. He knows his problem you know like that Lewanu documentary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Another example of VR. Another example of PR. I'm like dude can you imagine if it's the other way around? We got Lie Kuwanu and you guys got whoever Suarto. Can you imagine where Singapore will be?

If it's like the other way around, but and and I don't I don't completely agree when people say, "Oh, but that's a smaller country." Hey, man. It's the mentality, right? It doesn't matter if it's small or medium or big. But still, you need to take into account the size. I know, but still, right?

Like the guy had vision, you know? Hey, if if we Yeah. S he said something like you know Singaporean if it's not for the people it's nothing you know it's just like a land rocky land whatever he calls it right yeah but I mean to be fair that's what I always say you know Singapore is very small right so to a certain extent to get everything in order is a lot is a lot I wouldn't say easier but we are more agile in trying to make sure that things come together but you look at the population itself ours 6 million right it's like Jakarta population even less no lesser even lesser than Jakarta population Jakarta population is 27 million that's onetenth of one10enth of like the whole Indonesia population right and and that itself is easier as compared to I mean it's a lot easier you know to to to manage as compared to Indonesia itself right and at the same time we we have to be agile because we're so small we are like a somebody said that we are small little red dot right so we always say you know like little red dot and and the thing is if we cannot get in order and we don't have natural resources you know we don't have a lot of things you know and and if we are not agile and we don't get things in order it we are we are not going to survive in this competitive global landscape so while um I have always been very proud to be Singaporean right um and I do acknowledge that you know when it comes to when it comes to the policies that my government has given me it has really helped us to be competitive on a global stage. Yeah. Yeah.

But but at the same time, I I want to give I I I don't want I also want to give credit and say that like you know it's really because we are we are smaller. We that's why we need to be more resilient in this tough uh global landscape. Um for the record talking about prejudice right stereotyping uh in at least on on on my circle Singaporean are always perceived as very kasu. What's that? Am I guess?

Let's get to that. Yes. So, it's like you always wants to be the first in everything, right? I want to win. You want to win.

You always want to compete. You feel very competitive. Maybe even higher. I don't know the word, but it it's very Yeah. It's always very kasu and always very um Yeah.

Highly competitive. Yeah. Okay. Like competitive to the next level. Yeah.

To to that maybe to that um to that context. M and another stereotype about Singaporean is like they're very um they feel superior among other Southeast Asian uh people. Those are those are the very common Singaporean perceptions at least on my circle but at least to me right Vanessa John the Singaporean that we know like nothing like that. Yeah. So I'm like this whole prejudice about whatever country I don't think is right.

I don't think it's correct. So, it's about pring. Ah, you're changing perceptions. Maybe it's um it's like um it's like a propaganda for your Singaporean from your neighbor country, dude. Let's not name it.

Maybe a propaganda. Anyway, yeah, I I think to a certain extent, um I think a lot of Singaporeans are very proud of where we are today, you know, from from a little tiny fishing village to where it is today. So, so to a certain extent, I can see where the pride is coming from because I didn't just get this uh this comment from you. I got it from my Chinese friends um who would come to tell me and they would tell me Vanessa you're very different from uh Singaporeans that I've met when I was studying overseas you know um but I think to a certain extent u maybe maybe the different countries that I lived in have have taught me to be more empathetic towards you know different cultures and you know if we we we don't know it all you know and a lot of times I learn a lot from you know I learn a lot from you guys you know I learn a lot from you know the other cultures that really shaped the way I think about and approach things these days. Yeah.

Okay. I think this is also a very interesting topics. We have always been um talking about this a lot about how PR and marketing word always collide, right? And some companies trade PR individually. Some companies merge it together.

So there is this PR marketing debate always out there and everybody has their opinion about how PR marketing should be positioned in the company. M. So according to you and at least in your experience, right? Like how do you think PR and marketing definitely need to work together regardless of their position. Mhm.

So when you want to get a long-term brand equity, um PR and branding needs to work together, right? Because you remember you remember how we used to work together and I always emphasize that PR needs to pave the way before marketing activities can uh you know can come come in and you know do all of the loud marketing and a lot of times when it collides when you know there Stephanie and I when we are working we definitely have a few collisions right we definitely have a few friction that's when you know you know the the the crazy me wants to do The Eternal Debate: Where Does PR Fit in Marketing Strategy? you know wants to do something different Stephanie will be okay you know uh hey babe you know you need to you you need to assess this. So she will always be my guardian you know to to to tell me and and to really assess this uh situation. So that is when you know when PR gets overly cautious and when um marketing gets too pushes too hard you know that's when we collide but at the same time it's always important to put it put it on the table and say that like hey you know what's a common you know ultimately what we are trying to get here is to get you know long-term brand equity.

So how can you know PR and marketing work together to make sure that happens? Okay. And now as a as a marketer right like a let's just switch to like a full marketer perspective. Do you think PR um gets enough seats in you know in most meetings in most regional discussion do you guys talk about PR and how PR helps marketing efforts? I mean at least in my current role we do we we do I mean I have John on board.

John is oh we talk a lot about John. So John is like our mentor. Yeah. He he is Papa John. He's a veteran in in in PR.

You know you guys worked with him before. So a lot of times um I mean I I cannot speak for a lot of companies but I do find that there are certain companies that actually think PR as an afterthought. you know it's just about NPR is just you know press coverage you know instead of reput rep uh reputation building you know they can fix everything after the fact y I mean damage is already done you know how do you you know and you you can't expect them to be to be people who would be able to fix everything you know and and PR itself is actually um a lot of strategy and and a lot of relationship building and and a lot of times PR is the one that shapes a lot of how people think about your brand um how people perceive your brand and that storytelling itself is actually taken by PR itself. So it's a very strategic role in in in in my opinion is and is a growth lever. Yeah.

rather than an afterthought and honestly I think it's always taken a backseat really because under the under PR itself right it's a lot of people just see as PR but for marketing it's like social media marketing there's like live commerce marketing you know so that function itself feels very big and when it's it has so many functions people will naturally give seats to them but PR will be like a you know an afterthought most of the time okay maybe last but not least about this topic right what do you think is the biggest misconception ions between marketing and PR like I you know as I mentioned earlier right a lot of times they they just think that um PR is just press release you know and marketing is just marketing is just you know a lot of advertising you know I think everybody thinks it that in that manner and I think the most common misconception now that I think about it is that it's a cost center okay yeah right everybody thinks that u marketing itself is a cost center, you know, and um and PR is a cost center. But the thing is, if you build a long-term brand equity, it goes a longer distance. If you know how to tell a story, right, if you know how to frame your brand, right, it is a lot easier to push your products out there as compared to, you know, if you would if you were to pump in a lot of money into advertising to get your brand branding out there, but your branding, you know, your storytelling around your brand is not there. All of the money will go to waste. Yeah.

Or at least not as costefficient. Yes. Right. You're going to be spending a lot more than you have to. Right.

Yes. Correct. Correct. Correct. Yeah.

So, I would I would think that cost um seeing it as a cost center is a lot of misconceptions especially when it comes to sales. You know, they they view us as, you know. Yep. Yeah. And uh it's just an observation.

And I don't know if it's uh entirely accurate or not but uh it seems like the understanding of PR is also not equal from market to market. I think so. Yeah. For example, like in China, right? Like I talked to a lot of friends uh international friends or or or locally here Indonesians, you know, who work for like a like a very very Chinese Biggest Misconception: PR & Marketing as a "Cost Center" company, right?

And and it's funny because you know our first experience was with Xiaomi and at the time Xiaomi was under Hugo which was another entirely crazy story how we got to uh be Xiaomi's first PR agency in Indonesia. That was pretty intimidating crazy. Anyway, but back to the topic. Yeah. Is it true?

I mean uh do are most Chinese companies like that? I don't know like from your experiences because you guys you know work with Xiaomi you know just the other companies it seems like a lot of paid for coverage oh you know like that simple so they don't want to invest in what story whatever you know just pay you know if they pay oh okay we're PR agency how many coverage why are we talking what's the story man we don't even know the story yeah we just want to know you know if we invested certain amount of million rupia how much we will get back you know it's very transactional uh is that accurate from your observations especially if you're looking at other regions not only China obviously correct me if I'm wrong so so a lot of times when you know a company engages a PR agency and say that you know for this campaign we are looking at let's just say coding $2,000 you know and I would I would say that to a certain extent this amount of money is paid to let's just say a media you know just for just to make sure that the basics are being covered. You know, likewise in China, right? The reason why like red packets that are given is just to in Chinese we call it term a term a is like um you know your the transportation cost the cost of like food to actually travel. So to a certain extent to make sure the basics are being covered.

I see. Yeah. So so I think I think to a certain extent that amount of money is actually still needed to make sure that the basic of amplification is is actually being covered. This is you know what I mean? Yeah.

Um I think it's it's a it's a different way of doing things here. I guess I don't know. Market to market. Yeah. Maybe um the conception about PR is just a strict I pay you 2,000 I get 20 coverage.

Yeah. Some some companies and some even I think non-Chinese are also still sometimes have that kind of mindset because they have this differences of understanding about what PR is is doing. Right. M so they think PR is only about press release that's only press release that's it but they don't know the strategy behind it how to ensure that you know certain things about your company are being talked about etc etc but um in terms of paying paying the journalist :00 right I think um it's not a very common practice here uh so :06 if we were to invite journalists to our event for example we would not pay them at least what practice are doing :12 because we believe in um um integrity. Uh we believe in um :18 how uh that's why let me take a step back.

That's why in all of the events, :23 all of the pitch for our clients, we always make sure that it's it has value :28 to the journalists. It has enough value for them to write. Yep. It has enough value for them to to share :34 to their audience. Hence, they will come to our events or um :39 uh pitch voluntarily because of that value.

because we we we we believe in :45 that uh kind of PR but at the same time if you are inviting them to go to Bogong :50 Exactly. If it's out of town then yes bandong or internationally like you guys :56 we will provide we will provide like transportation meals and sometimes pdeium if it's :02 uh out of town or out of out of the country but in essence if it's in the city it's a launch event or like a :10 introduc introduction of a program etc because we believe in that value and we :16 we you know we have a high regard on that uh we we we don't usually have a :21 transactional of amount to them. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, what I was trying to get at is :27 just Xiaomi was so different ahead of its time, right?

In terms of :33 using PR, right, to spearhead everything, right? Uh before anything else, they do press :40 conferences, media meetups, right? Uh with the bloggers back then, right, with :46 the tech bloggers and then uh what do you call this session? like two words the breakout session. The Origin Story of Ministry of Gowns :51 Yeah, like the breakout sessions, right?

You know, it it was unheard of, right? So, so uh I personally learned a lot, :00 right? Uh we learned a lot uh from how you know John the Baptist I call him :05 right. He was John your ear will be itching. Shout out to John John.

Uh make sure :13 watch this episode. Uh but yeah, learned so much. John, Kaen, right? uh those two :19 hey this is let's do something like this you know and then we try to execute right and then we can get more creative :25 adapted to Indonesian ways right but you know there was a lot of uh this :31 activities never been done before I feel like in Indonesia never I feel I feel like how Xiaomi was doing :37 it is because um I I may be wrong but this is my observations at the time when :43 we work with Xiaomi in the beginning the company was relatively small in terms of size, in terms of budget, in :49 terms of coverage, in terms of markets, it was still relatively small. And the company, :55 why are you laughing?

I was just remembering the first time I met John, you know, that was pretty funny. Anyway, :01 yeah, it was it was small. It was relatively small in terms of everything. So, hence they they're using PR as an :07 anchor to everything. Correct.

Spareheaded everything any campaign products and everything. Hence the PR is :14 the upfront uh undoing all of this initiative for but as a time goes by right things shifted here and there a :21 little bit and PR take a step back and marketing take a more um you know uh dominant :27 roles parted in um a lot of thing different things but I think it's just a natural progressions of a company right :34 could be but the thing that I'm trying to say is not every company see it that way a lot :39 of company instead of doing PR first they're doing marketing market first and they're running out of budget. Yep. :45 Cuz it's marketing is not cheap. Let me just put it that way.

Not every marketing is not every marketing um uh :53 project is cheap. So I think as a PR person um it's also very :58 important to to company to understand that you cannot just do full-blown marketing without PR, without story. :04 Your brand means nothing a lot of the time. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I think this is something that uh I like to put it out there and :12 also because when it come you know this is something that we we always say when we're working at Xiaomi. So PR needs to :17 pave the way you know a lot of times all before all of the marketing activities comes in right PR needs to pave the way :24 to make sure that the tone is being set right the frame you know to frame the audiences before marketing activities :31 can actually be efficient in doing their magic. Yep. Okay. Uh before we get to the next :39 topic which is uh I have a lot of questions but but uh you guys go way :46 back right I'm still curious you know and we :52 can be honest in this table but what was your first :58 uh impression of Stephanie and has it changed?

Uhhuh. Uhhuh. I met Stephanie. I :05 remember the first time I met you was at um one of the launches. I'm pretty sure it's Remy Ford.

So, we were at the back :12 of the stage, the back of the room, and it was a full line of setup where we :18 had, you know, um all of the computers over there to make sure that the screen is good, you know, etc. :24 So, I think it was my first few present uh launches with uh Xiaomi. And when I :29 met her, I was like, "Wow, this this girl is so beautiful." Okay. Yeah. So this is this is one thing that :34 has been consistent throughout the years.

I mean she still looks the same. I don't know how she does it. She's very and she's very sharp, :42 you know, very confident and a little bit intimidating and a little bit intimate interesting. Okay. :47 So but the thing is at a point of time I think we were still a very client and a client and a agency relationship.

So I :54 was actually jumping over something. I was actually jumping over something and and basically she she just she just :01 she could handle me, you know. She could handle me with a lot of grace, a lot of calm, :07 you know, and and she was she was unfaced with, you know, all of the demands that I have. I'm not sure whether you remember, but I was jumping :14 in. I she's probably like Yeah.

But but but the thing is yeah :20 that's that's how I felt about her because I was actually I can't I can't remember what exactly it was but that :26 was how that was a that was a feeling that stuck with me for a very long time and um and and and and fast forward to :34 today she's still intimidating. Okay. Not really. Yeah. No but uh she's very :41 sharp.

still very sharp and um still very confident you know and um and I think apart from that as we work along :48 work along you know a longer time right I think what really makes her different and why I want to continue this :55 friendship you know this partnership with her is because of her heart yeah she has a heart of gold :01 yeah and and a lot of times she tends to be very you know I mean in we're friends right so she's very hard on herself :08 perfectionist you know she wants everything to be very done very well. You know, she goes to extra for her :14 friends. You know, I remember there was once I I had a I went to Raffles Hotel and I had this :19 uh food poisoning that was so bad. Oh no. You know from from what you know :24 what?

From a Haneamese chicken. Okay. I think it was a chili sauce. I I can't I can't remember. :30 Singaporean food poison.

Ham chicken Indonesia. Huh? :36 Yeah. you know, but but the thing is like she cared about my well-being more than her work that was piling up. :42 So, she dropped everything and sent me to hospital.

And mind you, I I wasn't I wasn't like even friends with her. And :48 she made sure that I was settled in. And she's like, "I'm really very sorry. I need to go back, you know, to to get things done." Then after that, she :55 arranged um you know u transport for to pick me up from the the the hospital again. So I think I think really really :03 is is her heart you know and apart from that you know and her her work ethics :08 you know her resilience you know her humor you know and her ability to navigate crisis with a lot of grace I :15 think that's that's actually what um makes me you know admire her as a :20 colleague as as a friend and now you know business partners.

Yeah. Yeah. now right? :28 Uh you guys can uh do it but but tell us :34 more about the ministry of God. Oh how how did it become about you know uh :40 whose idea and then you know we can understand uh why you guys can work together so much you know :46 with the uh how you guys think of each other.

So that's pretty cool. But yeah, :52 give us a background while uh later on we include you know like your Instagram :57 feed and everything in the background. You can talk about it. Yeah, I think it was just I feel like :04 it's like a serendipity or whatever you want to call it, right? Cuz I have suddenly I was already here.

:11 I think I was already here and then already at practice already back at practice. So one day it "All Polish, No Substance?" - A Common Industry Myth :17 was in the middle of lunchtime around afternoon I think she suddenly called me or text me I forgot hey do you want to :24 do this to me do you want to do this with me I'm like what and she just starts sending me a lot of videos :29 okay of a gown I think that was the first thing that um that was the first discussion :35 okay and I at the time I feel like hey this is very exciting because :40 two three years ago during co I have of difficulty to find a place to :46 rent a gown. So at the time I was like why everything so expensive here? :52 Because I know the price of the gown is should not be that expensive. There's already a pain point but then it :58 stays in my head.

I was just talking to my husband and never happened. Mhm. I see. It would just never happen. :03 You already thought about it but like whatever it never happened cuz I don't know where to start.

Uh I don't :08 know I don't I don't know procure the guns. all of the nitty-gritty because I'm not an entrepreneur so I don't have :14 that I don't know where to start to put to put things simple. So when she calls me and I'm like hey that's very exciting :21 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and then I call my husband and I consulted with him very brief and I think he's :26 also very excited cuz he think that this is something that we already talked about in the past but could make it happen and fast and I call her I think :33 within the same day we decided I think let's do this within two hours. Wow. Very fast.

Yeah. :38 It's crazy. Yeah. Don't not I don't think even a day, right? Two hours.

Yeah. Two hours. And then the next day I arranged a :43 flight to go to Singapore and see the goods. Wow. And then that's it.

It just happened very smooth, very fast. :49 And I believe it was one year ago. Was it a year ago? Yeah, exactly. A year ago.

:54 Yeah. And it just it just happened. We because I think also we have we we are we are pressurized by the time also, :00 right? to actually uh her friend who tried to sell the business is I think pressurized by the :07 by the partners by the partners and then by the by the lease of the place. :12 Okay.

So we decided to Yeah. just do it. Yeah. All right. One crazy thing that everybody needs to :18 know whoever watching is we only have about maybe seven days to pack like about a thousand dress.

:24 Wow. Seven days or less. Yeah. How did you guys get them here? like :30 multiple trips basically.

No, we shipped it. We shipped it with a cargo. Oh, okay. Um, that's entirely different crazy :36 story. Okay.

But the crazy story about actually put the thing together in one go is :42 Vanessa and John and his wife. John bring his wife to help us pack everything. Yeah. :50 Okay. And within 3 days, I think they managed to put everything in the box.

Yeah. Almost a week. Yeah. :56 Okay. And all the dresses made here.

All right. Yeah. Okay. 100 kilos. Yeah.

:02 100 kilos. Wow. Wow. Wow. Like 100 more.

More more than 100 kilos. Okay. So, obviously :08 a thousand. You said something like that. Maybe more.

Maybe more. So, tons of selections. :13 Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I love it. Tons of selections. Uh colors and everything. Style, right? :20 Uh for every body body shape and size.

All right. Uh different shapes and :26 sizes, right? Anything else we need to know about ministry of God? No, it's just like I feel like how we :33 started it is very random but I believe it's all um because of the 3 Keys to Success for Women in the Tech Industry :38 pain point that I feel like a lot of Indonesian are facing. Um everything to me every everything :45 should not be that expensive.

So hence we come up with this uh with this :50 business to to open access to more people like you don't have to whenever :56 you want to rent you feel too expensive then in the end you have to buy and in the end you only wear it once anyway. So we want to avoid that habit :04 it it doesn't make a lot of sense right if you think of it you design the dress :11 and then you wear it once and that's it. Yeah, that's it. And then it's like a another space in :17 your closet or maybe not even in your closet in your like gang gang or something, you know, :23 like a storage like a storage. So yeah, that's what that's that's the pain point.

But we we're still new uh in :28 operation. We're I think we're not even not even a year actually. We started we started operating in what :34 March. Okay. Earlier this year.

It took some time. If they're interested, where can they :41 find you guys? Where? Where? Sun.

We are We are located in Sun. :47 Okay. Sun. Is it like an uh like an actual like boutique kind of thing where you can try on? :53 Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Is it by appointment? Is it always open? Always open.

Always open. Time. :58 We are on the third floor of a coffee shop. Okay. So, we always open from 9 to 6 Monday to :06 Sunday.

Yeah. All right. Hey you guys, uh in case you're trying, you know, you're getting :12 married, right? Yeah, we have a wedding. Yeah, come see them.

Ministry of gown, right? :18 Try it. Effortlessly chic. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. In fact, I was just trying a :23 couple of gowns over the weekend. Just trying to pick out um you know, a dress for my one of my friends wedding. :29 Okay. So, we do have a wide selection of colors, you know, for every skin type, body type, :35 you know, and um yeah, every single dress.

I love it. I I I love that is an extension of my wardrobe. So I think a :41 lot of times you can see as an extension of your wardrobe. We take care of everything from end to end. Uh even when :46 it comes to let's just say if you find it a hassle to come down to our shop, uh we even have this home service where you :52 know we can we can we can we can arrange a video call for you to take a look at all of the se the entire selection that :58 we have and um which are the ones that you like it.

we'll pick it out and deliver to you and then somebody will actually take um :05 you know we'll make the measurements and take it back. Of course it's a premium service um that :10 you know we we we after a couple of times you know some clients come to us and say Vanessa I really you know :16 Vanessa Stephanie we love you know your addresses but sometimes is a bit too far uh you know so we instead of you know :22 you traveling down to us we can travel to we can travel to our clients. Yeah. Yeah. Nice.

Okay. Uh, good luck with the :30 business. I think it makes a lot of sense. There's a need for it, I think. :36 Uh, probably more people needs to know about it.

So, hopefully you guys can get the word :41 out there, right? Uh, that's pretty cool. Nice of you. Anyway, uh, any other questions, J. :48 Oh, yeah.

Maybe that's one one last closing questions. Um :54 I think we've we've addressed this already and um elephant in the room. Yeah. Like :00 you know as someone who is always polished who always look put together sometimes do you think people thinking :06 you are too put together to to be able to you know get your job done. Take me seriously.

Um I think it's a common :14 misconception that you know if you are they assume that being polished means no substance. Yeah. It's it's a very common :21 misconception in the industry. You know, I have um I have people coming to, you know, I have received feedback and say :27 that, oh, Vanessa is a legend. I I think she's just good with bosses.

Okay. I heard about that. :33 Okay. Cuz you wouldn't want to talk. I I was actually I was a little bit :38 taken aback really because I think when I was with Xiaomi um I actually worked really very hard because :45 it it was it is a technology industry and you know technology itself is ever changing and it's it's very fast-paced :51 so every single day I had to upkeep with especially when I was doing product marketing and product PR right we I have :57 to upkeep with myself in the latest technologies you know what's in the market what are competitors doing so you :02 know when everybody knocks off at you know 6 you know in China okay on average I'll be in office till 10 :08 11 so much so that you know my health suffered you know in in in the process so they don't see the amount of work :14 that I put you know behind the scenes to make sure that you know I'm always you know up you know :20 yeah just making sure that I'm you know above uh you know just to make sure that I'm there you know :26 and honestly I think that you can have both you can look sharp but you can still do the heavy lifting you know and :33 and honestly I I I I think that being put together actually is a advantage :39 because it helps sets the tone before you even open your mouth.

And um yeah and yeah this is this is :47 this is what I this is my opinion and you know and a lot of times I actually :52 see that uh sift that out of me uh of of the system because to me a lot of times :58 when they make certain judgments or certain comments like that shows you know um lack of confidence. Yep. :05 And you know that you are afraid of being challenged you know and honestly I'm always a work in progress you know :11 uh and there there will be certain things that I'm not afraid to say that I don't know but it does not and but you :17 know you don't know is one thing but I think having the attitude of okay I don't know but I want to learn more and :24 go finding out about it to make sure that you're always up your game is always at you're always the agame. :30 Yep. Okay.

Yeah. Very interesting. Now circling back to the all the way to the introduction :36 right uh you mentioned tech industry a lot of dudes right male-dominated :42 industry um let's say for :47 the younger generations uh females right who's trying to get into the industry what do you think the three trades that :55 they need to have you know in order to not only survive but thrive in like a :01 tech industry or male-dominated industry. :07 Um I think first and foremost is the mindset. Okay.

Right. Um second thing is the :12 performance being very focused on performance and um and making and and ensuring you :19 are team player. So I'll elaborate on these three points. Okay. Okay.

Cuz I don't I've never really seen um :25 you know being in a male-dominated industry as a barrier. So if anything right it pushes me to stay sharp you :32 know and I and I need to keep raising my bar you know even right now even in the in the job that I have it's I'm always :39 thinking about oh you know I I don't know enough you know how do I how do I make sure that I equip myself with the :44 relevant knowledge and you know I always focus on being prepared you know be confident in my delivery and I think :51 most importantly I have to be very open-minded with from everyone that I work with and don't be shy to say that I :56 don't know you know and because a lot of times the ability to say that I don't know shows that you have the humility to :03 actually want to learn. So that actually helps me thrive no matter what kind of environment. So and and honestly I never really :09 looked at it from a male versus female point of view. So honestly it's really about performance like you know being :15 very focused on objective.

You know my ex- boss would always say that you know um Vanessa you we just need to be be :20 very focused on the objective. So um you know it's it's about you know when when you consistently deliver right you will :27 earn respect regardless you're male or female. So it's not just restricted to the gender. So and I always believe that :33 you know competence speaks louder than you know anything else. And the last part is you know I've always believed in :39 uh you know we touched a topic on in earlier earlier on about cognitive diversity.

So to me right what I bring :46 to the table I may not know certain you know okay in a room full of engineers product managers um you know and and :53 other pe other other people from different backgrounds what do I bring to a table is actually cognitive diversity :59 and being a team player right when you focus on collaboration a lot of respect and ensuring that you know everybody :05 collectively comes together to to drive impact right that is what is most :10 important and building and when you build that trust and you deliver results as a team. That's the most important :16 thing because ultimately right you cannot function nor you know um you cannot just deliver alone. you if you :23 want to you know if you want to go if you want to go there's a saying right if you're going to fast you go al you go :29 alone and you go far far you go as a team something like that right correct something like that correct so I think it's really about :36 recognizing yourself as a team player and what do you bring to the table you know in fact this is something that I :42 learned from my previous teammates and that because a lot of times when we are interviewing candidates right we'll just :47 say that oh this person does not have a tech experience but to me it's a little bit like this person will bring in a :52 different perspective that a tech person would actually think about. And a lot of times when there's cognitive diversity, :59 there is a lot of you know um clash in terms of ideologies, a lot of ideas, you :05 know, a lot of mindset, a lot of cultures, right? That's where the magic happens.

That is why you see a lot of top performing teams. They have people :11 coming from different cultures, different backgrounds. Because when all these fuse together, that's where you :16 can think about, you know, doing excellent marketing, excellent projects, excellent results, delivering that. :23 Yeah, that's crazy everybody. So, we've been learning a lot from Vanessa, right?

:30 I've been learning a lot from you guys as well. No, I mean, very very insightful, right? Uh the way you put everything together, :37 you know, in a sense about leadership, right? putting people in the right uh places where they can perform diversity :45 all these things you guys a uh follow Vanessa right maybe social yoga :52 learn about her right uh so unfortunately as much as we enjoyed this :58 conversation I know you have to go to the airport which is crazy so uh we have :03 to wrap everything up uh Vanessa thank you thank you Vanessa thank you :09 did you good time talking here. Yeah, I I I'm I'm a bit sad that this is ending.

I actually enjoy a little :16 I wish you know I wish this could we can definitely do at least another hour, right? But but :22 that's why we have different episodes. Maybe you can come back again, right? We'll be more than happy to Thank you. :28 Thank you both for having me.

Thank you. Hey, uh we want to wish you good luck, much success uh for your :35 career and for the business. I think we're only see seeing the beginning right in terms of career. I'm sure uh :42 you'll go uh higher, you know, take it to the next level on your whatever is next for you. :48 So, uh good luck with that.

Anyway, everybody, uh thank you again, :54 Vanessa Tan, everybody. Thank you. [Music] English (auto-generated) All From the series From Proxemics Podcast Podcasts Related For you Watched :21 Bongkar Strategi Public Affairs & Masa Depan SEO di Era Zero-Click AI | 036 Proxemics Podcast 334 views • 4 days ago New Padres vs. Royals Game Highlights (7/19/26) | MLB Highlights San Diego Padres 39K views • 17 hours ago New :42 Comedy Store Snitch | Ep 230 | Bad Friends Bad Friends 10K views • 29 minutes ago New :43 Broken Promises | “48 Hours" Full Episodes 48 Hours 2.3M views • 9 months ago :07 Analisis Krisis Kepercayaan Publik: Dari 'Flexing' Pejabat hingga UU Perampasan Aset | 011 Proxemics Podcast 3.7K views • 10 months ago :18 Strategi Asli Agency Live Commerce Tangani Brand Raksasa (Bukan Cuma Omset!) | Proxemics #35 Proxemics Podcast 480 views • 2 weeks ago :43 2025 True Crime Stories | “48 Hours" Full Episodes 48 Hours 2.2M views • 6 months ago :32 Steebeeweebee Goes Red | TigerBelly 123 TigerBelly 1M views • 8 years ago :25 Dari SEO ke GEO: Evolusi Digital Marketing Beauty Brand Bersama Boss Paragon | 030 Proxemics Podcast 625 views • 3 months ago :54 Murderous Elements | "48 Hours" Full Episodes 48 Hours 1.1M views • 3 months ago Murder in the Parking Garage | Full Episode 48 Hours 2.6M views • 9 months ago :00 Marketing di Era AI: KYC, GEO, & Kenapa Karakter Lebih Penting dari Skill | 034 Proxemics Podcast 391 views • 1 month ago Pencopotan Kepala BGN: Evaluasi Murni atau Sekadar "Dead Cat Theory"? Proxemics Podcast 442 views • 1 month ago :22 Bobby Lee & The Korean Shame w/ Jules | TigerBelly 563 TigerBelly 139K views • 4 days ago New PADRES vs.

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